Talk:Southern American English/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

historical roots

A small point this, not directly related to the subject matter, but what does this sentence mean?

"The South was known for being largely settled by English from the West Midlands - the West Country. (The West Country dialect of Britain is also very similar to the Southern dialects.)"

Is it implying that West Midlands (of England) and West Country (of England) are synonymous? If so then this is very much mistaken. Both regions have very distinct, but quite different, accents associated with them.--81.153.216.201 22:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Question: What are some historical roots of the Southern American English dialect, if any?

Answer: David Hackett Fischer writes in Albion's Seed that "Scholars generally agree that this language developed from the "northern" or "Northumbrian" English that was spoken in the lowlands of Scotland, in the North of Ireland, and in the border counties of England during the seventeenth and early eighteenth century" (Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America p654). Speaking completely ex cathedra here, I'd say that Fischer's "backcountry" is the major origin of Southern today, unless you live in the Virginia tidewater or the Carolinas, in which case you're probably speaking a variant of "the dialect of rural Sussex" (261) brought over by the pro-monarchist planter aristocracy during the Commonwealth. Notcarlos 00:12, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

At a recent conference on English Dialects of the Carolinas, Sociolingist Dr. Walt Wolfram conceded that although southern English shares commonalities with British English, as you noted, it was greatly influenced by Scots-Irish settlers in the region, but, interestingly, that the most salient differences between Southern American English and other varieties of American English have actually developed since the Civil War.

In places that have been more geographically isolated, these differences are more pronounced today. The Coastal Carolinas and the Sea "Gullah" Islands of South Georgia, as well as many areas of Appalachia are good examples of such isolation. Only in the Ocracoke Brogue of the Carolina coast can we here any connection to the English of Sussex.Frazzled 22:01, 26 September 2005 (UTC)Frazzled

Frazzled is correct here. I have traveled through and known many people from the Virginia and North Carolina tidewater region. In places like Windsor or Scotland Neck, NC, the brogue is quite dominant (e.g. "aoot" for "out"). However, in studying dialects, we cannot ignore how mass-communication and rapid-transit have changed the nature of linguistics.

I live near the French Broad River gorge north of Asheville, NC. In this area, through the 1800's and early 1900s, many words were pronounced differently, depending upon which side of the river one was raised. (This is now mostly notable amongst older adults native to the area.) "Chicken" on one side of the river is "Cheeken" on the other. Though today insigificant, the river was a hard boundary between people. Too deep to be forded, too rough to be ferried, and too wide to easily build bridges across, it separated communities even though the distance between them may have been just a mile or two. Even today, only five two-lane bridges (accessible only via steep and winding roads) cross over the 40 miles of river between Asheville and the Tennessee state line - and the most used route between towns north and west of Asheville is not direct, but rather to travel to the city, then away from the city out to your destination. As people from other parts of the world gradually moved into these communities, subtle differences in accent or dialect would blend into the local vernacular. This resulted in slight, yet distinct differences in the language of the east-side from the west-side. The point being, although one can assign a dialect to a specific region, there are degrees of variation within a given dialect. Theoretically, one could track the granularity down to familial units or even an individual (though rather impractical).

Moreover, the influx of mass communication since the turn of the previous century has caused people to become acutely aware, on a near daily basis, of variations in a given language. The convenience of faster transit (cars, planes, etc.) have allowed people to relocate with minimal effort....which brings me to my point: The fact that both of these advents have occured near simultaneously presents an interesting dilemma to the notion that dialect can always be identified with locale.68.187.192.107 20:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

buggy

Who calls grocery carts a "buggy"? I don't doubt that some do, but I am from the Gulf Coast and have never heard a grocery cart called that before. It might be a subregional thing. Also, "done" instead of "already" is only common in uneducated dialect, as far as I know. To mention that as part of southern dialect would be analogous to saying the U.S. northeastern dialect puts 'you' with 'was', e.g. "You was wrong." Mauvila 07:58, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The use of "buggy" for supermarket cart is widespread in Southern Appalachian English. To speak of "Southern English" as a homogenous dialect would be akin to referring to the English language as consisting only of the Queen's variety. [Frazzled]

Growing up I called them buggies sometimes. I don't think I ever really do that anymore, but that's proof that people do say it. I also say done instead of already sometimes, and I don't think that makes me uneducated, does it? Everyking 14:51, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You say "We done did this"? What part of the south are you from? Mauvila 02:16, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In coastal South Carolina, "buggy" is pretty much routine. Pollinator 16:04, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

I say 'buggy' -- my side of the family that uses that word comes from Central Alabama. Nautile 22:03, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard "buggy" or "we done did this" and I'm from Georgia. It does seem to be the kind of thing that would distinguish "plantation" or "educated" accents from "common" or "redneck" accents. Haverton 17:15, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Varieties of Dialects are not only distinguished by region but (as you so crassly asserted) by social class. Indeed what is "common" then would be what is most widespread, not what is necessarily espoused by the educated or the elite. Thus, "done" is common (as in "you done said the wrong thing") as is the use of the double modal (e.g., "you might could think, but you ain't got the proper equipment"). Please do educate yourself: accent is merely one part of dialect; the part under disucssion here is vocabulary, which I think all will agree is the most interesting and colorful aspect of language. Unfortunately, the prejudiced you eschew I presume to interpret as your wanting us all to speak "McEnglish." Well, sorry to tell ya, pal, but I reckon it ain't gonna happen.Frazzled 21:50, 26 September 2005 (UTC)Frazzled.

I live on the eastern Mississippi Gulf Coast, not too far from Mobile, AL and "buggy" is the common word here for shopping carts. CelticJobber 3:19, 23 March, 2006 (UTC)

Lived in Savannah, GA for several years and they used the word "buggy" all the time. As in "My friend carried me to the Pig and helped me find a buggy." Brynna 05:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

As a native Arkansan, I must say that the use of buggy is extremely widespread, even in the "affluent" areas of Little Rock and NW Arkansas (Fayetteville, Bentonville). To say shopping cart would sound weird to me.

My dialectal background is coastal Virginia & Georgia, and I'm surprised to find that "buggy" is considered a regional word. I thought it was in universal usage.

merry-marry

Angr, if you're reading this: you added Mary to the merry-marry section. Is this something you know for certain? I was pretty sure that the typical Southern pattern was to merge two but keep the other distinct, not to maintain a three-way distinction. AJD 17:36, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't tell the difference between these three words. I was born in the Ohio river valley in Indiana and grew up in Houston. --dude

For me, these 3 have the same pronunciation, although my father distinguished "Mary" as having a long /a/ sound. We speak a variety of Southern Appalachian English.Frazzled 21:48, 26 September 2005 (UTC)Frazzled.

I grew up in Houston, and Mary, Merry, and Marry all have the same pronunciation there. The only person I knew who said 'Mary' differently than that was a British woman named Mary. - VirgilOrion

You'uns et al.

In re: the edit by 64.16.181.63, who wrote: I have never heard "we'uns" in my life except out of northern people that want to make fun of southern people that use "you'uns" in their speech. As a southern speaker, I find this quite offensive.

• I too am a native southern speaker, and, having lived in and around the Ozark mountains for some time, I have heard people say "we'uns" (pr. closer to "weens"). I'm sorry that you found this offensive, but it is a vaild change in the language that has been verified by linguists, not all of whom are "northern people" of a perjorative bent. Notcarlos 14:21, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I've lived in the South (Gulf coast) all my life and I have never heard anything-uns. I don't think Ozarks/Appalachian dialects are typical for the South. --Mauvila 23:23, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I never knew my father's parents, who passed on some 8 years before I was born; but I have two letters his mother wrote that contain many "youens." She was born in 1870 in West Virginia's Monongahela County.

My parents are from Wayne County, Southern Illinois and both use the word "you'uns." I've also heard it from people in and around Springfield, Columbia, and Jefferson City, MO due to the fact that I'm an Internet support rep for a major cable company in that area. However, when I lived in Savannah, GA I never heard anyone using it, nor have I heard anyone from the Deep South use it on the phone. Brynna 05:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

You'uns is a famously Appalachian and Ozark feature that it is uncommon near the Coastal South. It also has a famous Pittsburgh variant, "yinz".

Word use

Drowneded? I've lived in several parts of the south and never heard this word, which an anon added to the word use section. I'm deleting it unless there's concensous to keep it. Sayeth 02:41, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I've heard it used by many Southerners for the past tense/participle of drown. I'm putting it back where it was, Smith

Ever Heard Bob Dylan's song "When the Ship comes in?"(c1963) "Then they'll raise their hands, Sayin' we'll meet all your demands, But we'll shout from the bow your days are numbered. And like Pharaoh's tribe, They'll be drownded in the tide, And like Goliath, they'll be conquered." Frazzled 15:43, 14 October 2005 (UTC)frazzled

Growing up in Houston, everyone said "drownded", and I honestly can not recall the actual grammatically correct. - VirgilOrion

It is all explained at: http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/drgw006.html

Rather than discuss individual words, why not just link to http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/southernese.html All this work has already been done by professionals.

Drownded is quite common in North Carolina.

y'all

I've disovered (at least in "rural" lake county, FL), that "y'all" is Singular!. It's "all y'alls" or "alls y'alls" for the plural. For example, you go into an Apopka restaurant, and the server will ask "Has alls y'alls decided whatcha fixin' ta eat?" Swirsky 14:55, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've lived in the South all of my life, and I know that "y'all" always refurs to more then one person.

I've heard both "y'all" and "y'alls" but they were always referring to the plural - VirgilOrion

I agree...y'all has always been plural to my knowledge. However, I've heard may people (in Southern Appalacia) say "We'll see ya later," when, in fact, the "We" is only one person.

This is how I've always heard understood and heard "y'all" being used (using, for instance, a university baseball team)

• Q. "What is y'all's name?"
  • A. "The University of Alabama Varisty Baseball Team" used as a general consensus, or grouping quality
• Q. What is all (of) y'all's name?" (in large group)
  • A. "Matt", "Nathan", "Philip", "Randall" … used to indicate the answer of each individual in the group
• S. "I caught y'all's home run yesterday" even if talking to directly to the batter who hit the homer, he's still an individual in the group

The last is the one that confuses most people and causes them to think it is being used in the singular, but it's not. You cannot say "I went to y'all's house" to someone who lives alone. If you say it to someone who lives with someone else, even though the both of them are not present, you still end up to the individual as part of the greater whole.

Tidewater Virginia "ou"

In Tidewater Virginia, where I grew up, one of the dialect markers is something similar to Canadian raising. My wife, a New Englander, used to hear my parents' "about" as "aboot". I'm not a linguist, and know little about documented studies of American accents, so I'm reluctant to add this to the article (plus, it may be a regional distinction that's dying out). Do any Wikipedians with more linguistic training know anything about this Virginia "ou"? —Josiah Rowe 16:57, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Speakers of this Virginia dialect also pronounce "tomato" as "t'-MAH-duh", for what little that may be worth. Sorry that I'm not fluent in IPA, or I'd be more precise about these pronounciations. —Josiah Rowe 16:57, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the older Tidewater generation still pronouces the "ou" as aboot, hoose (house), roote (route), but its not as sharp or pronounced as the Canadian vowel raising. To my ears, its in between the two pronunciations.

In fact, Southerners not only never confuse "you" with "y'all", but in most areas "y'all" has become a plural 2nd person singular pronoun (yall) with its own possessive (yalls), the possession of which is sometimes even doubled (yallses) as the past tense is doubled in "drownded". An influential discussion written by a linguist who was born and raised in North Carolina may be found at http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/drgw006.html. The reason Northerns cannot understand this usage is that they do not understand Southern culture: it is impolite to single individuals out of the group they belong to as someone above has correctly pointed out. To invite one member of a family to your home is offensive. "Yall come" may be uttered to an individual but it always applies to his or her entire family. The article above explains everything discussed here.

Rather than try to list all the thousands of elements of southern US regional dialects, why not just link to a page by a professional linguist born and raised in the South who has already made up a list that characterizes the dialect rather fairly if humorously: http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/southernese.html

Absurd

Maybe I am just crazy, but I find this whole concept rather absurd. I am from the deep south, live in the not-as-deep-but-more-coastal south, and lived in New England for a couple of years. I am sorry to guffaw at the linguists, but southern drawl is nothing more than a few words that are pronounced differently along with a couple of regionally affiliated slang terms. I don't speak a different dialect, I just have an accent. --Coldbourne 10:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Just to add some more dimension to your analysis, note that you do indeed "just have an accent" as all speakers of all varieties of all languages have "accents." To say one has an accent is to say that one has a systematic, rule based, phonology which is somehow distinctive from another group of speakers. Therefore all speakers of all varieties have accents.

Southern varieties of English are rule based systems of pronunciation, lexicon, and grammar. They are not random elements or isolated features. Also, southern speech is not equivalent to slang, although southern slang exists as slang exists in all language varieties. Slang describes terms used in informal setting which are basically transient in usage. Southern varieties have their own documented lexical items which are rather stable, unlike slang. CMcLewin 21:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

New Gramamar division

I have made an edit of the Word Use section so that it is divided into word use and grammar. I also added a few different grammar points. Most of the new information comes from English in the United States (2003).

It looks pretty good, but if "hot water heater" is frequently used outside of the South, shouldn't it be omitted since the point is to mark differences? AEuSoes1 07:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I think this seems reasonable. I will remove, but I'm open to discussion on the topic. --Oxen 11:17, 26 December 2005

I already removed it. I'd like to see evidence other words predominate in other parts of the country before having it restored here. --Angr (t·c) 07:41, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Requested move

Southern American English to Southern Drawl. The Southern Drawl is the more common name for the dialect, so the article should be moved there. Robot32 23:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~~~~

• Oppose. "Southern drawl" is a vague, somewhat disparaging name for one aspect of Southern American English. --Angr (t·c) 23:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose The term is often used as a pejorative. Pollinator 01:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose for both the reasons listed above. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose for reasons above. Especially the point about drawl being a pejorative.--Alabamaboy 02:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose in linguistic circles, SAE is the more common term and this is a linguistics topic. And the reasons already stated. AEuSoes1 03:22, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Besides reasons listed above, Southern drawl is sometimes used by linguists to describe a single aspect of SAE, as is discussed in the article. -- Oxen 02:03, 30 DEC 2005

Actually, it's used mostly by non-linguists to describe a single aspect of SAE. --Angr (t·c) 07:26, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose Dito to all of the above reasons because the "drawl" which the public refers to is only an informal description of some of the phonological features of SAE.

CMcLewin 21:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose What kind of asshole labels a whole set of dialects as 'drawl'?Cameron Nedland 23:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Southern Appalachian

"The Southern Appalachian dialect is, among all the dialects of American English, the one most closely related to the Scots dialect of English (see Scots language, Ulster Scots language)." It doesn't sound very Scots. Any sources to back up this tenuous claim?

No, there's no evidence of this. I compared some Scottish Gaelic phrases to Appalachian English phrases just as a reference point in the entry I wrote for Appalachian English, but this should not be taken as proof that there is any similarity. The Scots who moved to Appalachia were mainly from the Lowlands, and thus were monolingual English speakers, not Gaelic speakers. I think the Gaelic speakers retreated into the Highlands of Scotland. 63.23.9.77 03:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Scots refers to the Emglish dialect spoken in Scotland. Comparisons with Gaelic is useless.

Southern United States English

Shouldn't this be Southern United States English? Southern American implies South America. It's actually southern only in the context of the United States. Ken 23:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

No, the English of South America would be South American English. Since the large majority of English speakers in the Americas are in North America, one can use Southern to mean the southern portion of the English-speaking region. AEuSoes1 23:53, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with AEuSoes1. In addition, changing the article to Southern United States English would mean using a term no no one uses or would recognize.--Alabamaboy 00:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Ken in this one.Cameron Nedland 23:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The adjectival form of South America is simply South American, hence, Southern American references to the Southern parts of America, implicitly the United States given that the southern tips of the Americas speak Spanish. Besides, Southern American English is the standard linguistics term used in academic papers and critical studies on the topic, and since the role of Wikipedia is to describe not prescribe, the title should thus remain Southern American English. Matthew Stuckwisch 07:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Matthew Stuckwisch. To use any other name would be original research, which is not allowed here.--Alabamaboy 16:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with Matthew. Angr (talk) 16:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

You only say it is the standard linguistics term because the United States' population are the ones who write it. I think it is derogatory to suggest that american is just the United States - I agree with Ken that this should be southern united states english or something along those lines. Hombre Equis 15:58, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

== Naming... == (from the Southern literature talk-page) Shouldn't this page be called Southern-American literature rather than simply Southern literature? --205.188.117.6 05:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

No. To call it that would be inaccurate because 1) That implies literature from South America and 2) Southern literature is what the genre is called by all acceptable academic and literary sources. Best, --Alabamaboy 16:35, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems inaccurate because most academics would call literature from South/Central America South American literature (with further subsets by country), Central American literature, Mexican literature, etc. I mean, being an American from the Southern USA (North Carolina) I understand it perfectly, but it still seems a bit too ethnocentric because this "title" could apply to the Southern part of just about any country -- yet it is reserved exclusively for the American South? Why? This topic would perhaps be better called Literature of the American South or Literature of the Southern United States but these may both be a bit unwieldy, especially for a Wikipedia page title. Therefore, it seems best to shoot for Southern-American literature. --205.188.117.6 07:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

BTW -- I just saw (on the Southern literature page) that the Southern dialect is found on the page entitled "Southern American English" -- this seems to reiterate my point that this page should be promptly re-named Southern-American literature (plus or minus the hyphen) to make it clearer for readers and especially to help avoid confusion with international readers who don't know Charleston from Kalamazoo. --205.188.117.6 07:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Would someone go and change the main Southern literature page name and have it redirect to the proper Southern American literature page? If this page is called "Southern American English," shouldn't the other be called "Southern American literature"? Southern literature is far too broad and could apply to many-many countries...thanks. --205.188.116.7 07:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Reckon

The word "reckon" which is often used in the South in the place of the words "think", "suppose", or "guess" needs to be mentioned in this article. An example of "reckon's" usage: "I reckon I'd better stop speeding, or I might get pulled over."

Suprisingly (to me at least) Australians use this very often. As a Midwesterner, I think of the South every time. I guess I am in South Australia. Hmm... --Xyzzyva 11:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Accents

The main difference in dialects of Southern American English would be Geography. The Inland-Southern accents are very similar and can't really be distinguished from. Most of North-central GA,AL,MS, North LA, Central to Southern ARK, East and parts of North Texas, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, and the piedmonts of SC and NC. All have the typical Southern Accent we think of or that hollywood galmourized. Also noted Some parts of North Florida have similar accents among local residents as well as secluded parts of Southern GA and AL. The coastal dialect is probally the older dialect deriving from the colonial settlers rather than Scotch-Irish and working-class English immigrants. This dialect usually is spoken in the higher classes of southern society a great example of this would be in the Atlanta area; in blue collar communities the thicker inland accent is common but in the city among the distinguished residents the old coastal dialect is heard resembling the plantation society of the lowlands. Done, fixin, ain't, "cain't", boy, folks, are commonly used in the inlands. Also African-American vernacular had a large influence on this accent as well due to the closeness with the poor whites of the south as they share cropped side by side, several pronunciations and words were exchanged. Other dialects can be categorized as Southern American English as well for example: Southern Illinios, Extreme Southern Missouri, and well into Indiana accents are very similar to those of the south. The explanation of this is in Indiana and in Southern Illinios is due to the migration of a substantial amount of poor whites to the area from MS, TN, AL, KY, and to a smaller part Georgia and Arkansas. However in Missouri it was probally derived from the area. These accents are NOT RELATED TO ANY PART OF THE MIDWEST FROM LINGUISTICAL RESEARCH. The Texas accent is somewhat of a blend. Texas was settled by settlers from the State of Georgia ( included MS and AL at the time) and the Tennessee frontier. when opened to settlement by the spanish. As immigrants from Germanic and Slavic languages settled into central Texas the dialects began to blend. Then the promise of Texas success to Americans in the North brang the third influence. But the strong majority which is present in speech comes from the original settlers of Texas.

The accents how ever are not from celtic origins and have no relations to the language of Gaelic, But are rather close to Old English. Due to cultural and settlement influences from Germanic tribes of the Isles of Britian. Many typical Germanic pronunciations were dropped with other influences.

A question about the Texas accent: I grew up in Houston, and then moved to the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. I've noticed a few differences in vocabulary. For instance, the way Houstonians pronounce the name of their own city. You could easily tell who was a native or not by the way they pronounced Houston with a "y" sound instead of the "h" sound. A slight blur between an "e" and "o" follows it up. Texas, or Houston at least, was also gaining a strong influence from Mexican-Spanish, mostly in vocabulary. Going out into the country a bit more, a slight Germanic influence is there, mostly due to the large amount of Czech settlers. My grandparents, and others their age, don't have what I'd considered even a slight Southeran American-English accent or vocabulary. Certainly a more older version of the current Texan way of speak though. Honestly, the typical Southeran American English, from any region, sounds nearly foreign to me, in the same way that accents from New York or California do. Is the Texas accent/vocabulary within a few decades of becoming its own dialect? - VirgilOrion

I don't know what research has been done into the question, but I do know there's not just one Texas accent. By my observation (I grew up in Austin), East Texas has a much more typical "Southern accent" than West Texas, and English-speakers in South Texas usually speak fairly "standard" General American. Angr (talk • contribs) 06:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I wish Arkansas was discussed more in this article, I think we have one of the most varied situations. People from southwestern Arkansans (Like Texarkana, my home city) can sound like anything from Cajun to Texan to Mississippi Deltan, Eastern Arkansans usually speak the Inland dialect most associated with the typical southern accent. People from Little Rock have their own little accent, too. Also, it seems that cities immediately south of LR (Benton, Arkadelphia) still sound like they speak Inland/Mississippi Deltan, but people in cities immediately north (Conway, Russelville) sound more like NW Arkansans who speak differently (Almost no accent, at least the educated people!). Here in NW Arkansas, there are many college students and business professionals (Wal-Mart is headquartered here) as well as people from the bigger cities in Missouri (who speak more midwestern and use more metropolitan words). Therefore, there are almost no distinguishing accents for this area. (Until, however, you head east towards Mountain Home and Jonesboro, where they, in my opinion, have a whole different way of speaking; probably influenced by the accents of Kentucky and Tennessee).

Sorry for the length, I just thought it was interesting.

Elizabethan English in the Appalachians

Many people believe that a dialect close to that of Elizabethan English is spoken in remote parts of the Appalachians. The idea has currency because it is attractive and compelling. It demonstrates a yearning for a sense of historical longevity within a young country; it lends comfort to those who wish to emphasise the Anglo-Saxon nature of America's cultural origins in the face of its ethnic diversity; it confirms the "backwoods" stereotype. However, it is merely a cultural myth; there is no linguistc evidence to support it. This myth has spread through the writings of jounalists rather than the writings of the well-informed. It should not be perpetuated in this article.

^Show evidence supporting your case or you'll just continue to be ignored. There's plenty of evidence supporting a conection between Elizabethan English and the English spoken in the Appalachians. It's just that Elizabethan English had numerous dialects (Hiberno-English is very much an Elizabethan dialect), just as PDE has numerous dialects. Furthermore, language is an organic thing. Certainly, the Appalachian dialect may not be exactly what the first settlers spoke, but that doesn't mean it's grown far apart. If all you're going off of is books you've read, in their original form, from the 15-1600's then you're an idiot. It's a known fact that what was written was not what was spoken and that we're still not completely sure of how Elizabethan speakers poke.

^Do I need to point out that it shouldn't be up to me to provide evidence to support a negative. On the other hand, anyone who espouses this theory had better come up with something compelling, hadn't they? The trouble is, nobody has. It is not just a lack of empirical linguistic evidence that stands in the way of this theory; it just doesn't hold water. Firstly, no Elizabethan settlement survived in North America. Jamestown, Virginia (the first permanent colony) was formed under the reign of James I. Furthermore, Europeans have populated the southern mountains for only about 200 years, so how did they manage to preserve their "Elizabethan" (or should that be "Jacobean") dialect during the intervening 200 years? Secondly, exactly what counts as speaking "Elizabethan"? If you go to England and visit the county of South Yorkshire, you will find that the inhabitants use the archaic pronouns "thee" and "thou". Why doesn't anyone accuse them of having preserved "Elizabethan" English? The answer is because archaic speech is not unusual. Archaisms are used throughout the English speaking world: they do not constitute evidence that a dialect has been preserved in any special way. It is claimed that the Appalachian dialect has been preserved by the isolation of its speakers, but no one could claim that South Yorkshire towns like Sheffield or Barnsley are isolated places. If Appalachian speech does contain archaisms, what makes it more "Elizabethan" than the multitude of other dialects which use lexical items or grammatical patterns that were also around back then? Finally, if "we're still not completely sure of how Elizabethan speakers poke (sic)" then how can anyone assert that modern people speak like them? That is illogical, Captain! I'm afraid that written texts are all we have as evidence for Elizabethan speech. What else do you propose we use as evidence? Sir Walter Ralegh's ipod?

I have heard this popular myth many times. Elizabethan English is a colloquial term for Early Modern English, the formal term (I just changed the link). Elizabethan or Early Modern English is not limited to the English spoken during the lifetime of QEI or Shakespeare. I agree, however, that the entire premise seems illogical. EME is usually cited as ending around 1650; permanent English settlers first arrived in the Americas in 1607. However, generally people cite not only vocabulary but pronunciation.

Luckily, we do have Sir Walter Raleigh's iPod to . . . no, wait. We have other linguistic evidence. For example, we know about the Great Vowel Shift--a major change in pronunciation in the 16th century. Despite all that, I agree that the assertion is specious (or at least unverified) and should probably be removed unless we can find and cite a reliable source for the rumor. JordeeBec 22:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Inversion a joke addition. Huh?

I recently saw my addition Inversion of indefinite pronouns: "everwhere", "everwhat", etc., in place of "wherever", "whatever" in word use was removed by a random IPer for being "a joke". I'm sorry, has he or she ever been in the South? This is still said with relative frequency and mentioned in many conference proceedings I've been to on linguistics.

Can you provide a link to source so that other people can verify it? Angr (t • c) 07:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It's listed in most major dictionaries as a SAE dialect word. See [1]. I'd cite the conference proceedings, but I didn't exactly record them :) Matthew Stuckwisch 09:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

History of Settlement

I have not read the 1860 consensus, but I can certainly tell you that the South is very much an Anglo-Saxon area. Sure, it wasn't solely settled by English from the West Midlands, but it is not primarily Celtic, nor is the West Midlands a Celtic region. The stupidty would be excusable except that this is a text that is otherwise very professional and Wikipedia is itself a credible on-line source. The South is AngloSaxon. If you want to contend that there's a strong Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scot (that is not the same as "Irish") influence then o.k., but those really aren't a truly Celtic people, either. Well, whatever, I fixed it, but from now on may we keep to fact and not to peronal musings.

No, you didn't "fix it". You changed someone else's sourced statement to your own unsourced personal musings. The previous version had a link to source the claim "three-quarters of white Southerners had surnames that were Scottish, Irish or Welsh in origin" (namely http://www.americasvoices.org/archives2003/AdamsJ/AdamsJ_061403.htm), but unfortunately the link doesn't work any more (at least not for me right now). Now it's up to you to provide sources for the claims "The South known for being largely settled by English from the West Midlands" and "Settlement was also made by peoples from other parts of the Brisith isles, particularly by Protestants from Ulster; however, their influence on SAE was limited." Angr (t • c) 05:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Tastes pronounced "Taste-is"

Where I live in coastal Mississippi, it's common especially for older people to pronounce the "s" at the end of the word tastes, so that it sounds more like "taste-is". An example would be "This tea tastes good". Has anyone else heard it pronounced this way in another part of this South? Would this use be appropriate to add onto this entry? CJ

Only if you can cite a reliable source where it's discussed. Personal observations are considered original research and can't be included. Angr (t • c) 07:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

In western and central NC, I've heard some (very few) people use "costs" this way. "It cost-es a whole lot." But I wouldn't say that's an overwhelmingly common thing. Dubc0724 12:28, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Needs more famous examples

In my opinion, this article should cite literary examples from famous works written in a Southern dialect for examples of speech. Many writers write in a very phonetic fashion when a character is speaking in Southern, and accurately shows the manner of speach. One obvious example of a source to quote from would be Faulker's works, but there are plenty of other good sources for this as well. Also, this has the additional benefit of being a reliable source, making the need for citing additional references unneeded. --SeizureDog 01:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Early Modern (Elizabethan) English Myth removed

I rephrased the following from Different Southern American English dialects/Midland & Highland/South Midland or Highland Southern (it was the last phrase of the first paragraph):

Original and has retained a number of elements of Early Modern English (the language spoken by Shakespeare)

Rephrased The dialect is said to retain some features of Early Modern or Shakespearean English which General American English has lost. [2]

If someone would like to change this back, please include references to scholarly, peer-reviewed works which back up this claim and/or provide specific examples. Here are my references for changing it:

• Linguistic Society of America See the paragraph under Language Variation.
• Ohio University See Myth #9. While these authors conclude the myth is harmless, it doesn't mean we should perpetuate it.
• Language Log Blog at U Penn (#1): As she states, Standard English has also preserved a number of features of Shakespearean English--we just don't notice them because they're standard. It's hardly notable that SAE may have retained a few other features--especially if we leave the vague claim at that.
• Language Log Blog at U Penn (#2). See for yourself. I'm from NC and my mother's family hearkens from WVa--and I can't understand a word of the first recording of an authentic Shakespearean pronunciation. This page also gives an explanation as to how they've determined what the authentic pronunciation is.

Basically, I see the point of the myth as pointing out that this dialect of SAE has evolved in a way that is slightly different from General American English over the last few centuries. But to point out that it retains features of EME is to imply that Standard American English does not retain any of its features. Simply put, Standard American English and Southern American English have both retained a number of elements of EME--many of these elements are the same, a few are not. If someone would like to fix the weasel words or simply remove the sentence altogether, be my guest! JordeeBec 19:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Dubya

George W. Bush speaks Southern American English, doesn't he? If so, let's add him in that paragraph where the article mentions US presidents that spoke SAE. Clinevol98 19:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Barely. He misspeaks English with a slight Texas drawl... not what I'd call Southern English. ;-> Dubc0724 20:20, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

It always sounds to me like his accent is forced. His pedigree is New England blueblood, and he was born somewhere up there. Additionally, his entire family was from there, and his parents did not have Southern accents. It could be acquired during his youth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.168.221.221 (talk • contribs) 11:27, July 20, 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Dubya was born in New Haven, Connecticut, although he never mentions it and it's conspicuously absent from his official biography on the White House website. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

He moved to Midland, Texas when he was 6, so I doubt he took much of his accent from New England. The fact that you don't like him doesn't change the fact that he speaks with an accent which can generally be described as Southern American English. --209.30.58.229 06:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say otherwise: I'm just saying that he's keen to hide his Yankee roots. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

That's quite an assertion for someone who isn't mentioning sources, Josiah. How can he "hide" his place of birth when it's a matter of public record?

My own father was born in NY in 1936, but his family moved to Florida when he was 2. He has always considered himself as from Florida, where he was raised, went to school, made friends, and where his family opened a business that lasted until his father died. Why should someone claim to be from an area that they remember so little of, or an area that had so little influence on their "world view" and upbringing? For all practicality, GWB was raised in Texas where he moved when he was two, (not six, 209.30.58.229 [3]). Arx Fortis 15:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Arx, I stand corrected; the White House bio does mention that Bush was born in New Haven (although it does not mention his schooling at Phillips Academy in Andover, Mass.). I didn't mean to suggest that Bush was falsifying his birthplace, just glossing over a biographical detail that doesn't jibe well with his Texan identity; but anyway, the question is moot. I don't remember where it was that I heard that Bush's official bio lacked mention of his birthplace — perhaps it once did, but it was subsequently added, or perhaps it was a campaign website and not the White House one. Anyway, I remember hearing some discussion of it as an odd footnote somewhere along the line, but I can't find a source now.

I didn't really mean to suggest anything more than the massaging of biography into simple, media-friendly narratives, which is hardly exclusive to Dubya: remember when Bill Clinton (born in Hope, Arkansas but raised in Hot Springs) was sold as "the man from Hope"? Anyway, this discussion is digressing from the point that's relevant to this page: should George W. Bush be included as an example of Southern American English? One aspect that should be considered is whether the accent of Midland, Texas (the primary influence on W.'s speech patterns, I assume) is best characterized as Southern or Western. I'm not a trained linguist, and don't know exactly where these boundaries are drawn, but to my (Virginia-born) ear a West Texas accent isn't the best example of Southern American English. However, your mileage may vary. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

This is why Wikipedia prohibits original research. It doesn't matter how good anyone's ear for regional accents is; if there's not a reliable source (in this case, a linguistic one) confirming that his accent is Southern, he should be left off the page. The same goes, incidentally, for everyone else listed here. User:Angr 17:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Baltimorese

If the Philadelphia accent is really close to New Jersey / New York as stated by the wiki link, then surely Baltimore natives do not speak it. (I'm a native.) Wikiwikiwikiwikiwikiwiki 16:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm an expert

I'm from Kentucky. GangstaEB~(penguin logs) 00:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Reworked Phonology and Grammar

I added some sub-sections under Grammar and Phonology because both blocks were simply to massive, and there was already a distinction being made between Older and Newer SAE. For readability's sake, I also changed the way the grammar examples were cited. Good or bad? --Sept. 27th

Glottal/Silent T

I'm curious as to whether any other Southerner's pronounce the "t"s in words like "milton", "fighting", "fulton", and other such words as little more than some sort of glottal stop before the proceeding vowel, and also as to whether this phenomenon occurs elsewhere. I know it's quite common in the Peidmont region of Georgia amongst non-yankee speakers, if anything. Should this be added to the pronunciation section?

• In Gulf Coastal Mississippi, we always pronounce the t's in those words, so they sound like what I assume is normal such as "mill-ton", "fight-ing" or "fuhl-ton".--CJ 07:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

• I was born in the South Carolina Piedmont and raised in Georgia Piedmont, and agree with the original assertion. Its quite common among native speakers in these areas (including myself) to pronounce these "t"s very softly, as a glottal stop.

• Ditto to the guy above me; I'm from the North Carolina Piedmont. I barely pronounce the t's in "George S. Patton." They're there, but I don't enunciate them at all and it sounds strange to do so. Also, what's with the "Doesn't cite sources" bit? What sources does one need besides a native speaker?

• I've never EVER heard anyone but non-natives use "Coke," "cola," "soda," "pop," "Pepsi-Cola" or anything but "soft drinks" to describe soft drinks, unless they were specifically referring to "Coke."

Lol, you haven't been around, have you? Jerr

To answer your question "what sources does one need besides a native speaker", please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources. "This is so because I'm a native speaker and I say it this way" is not good enough. —Angr 15:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know exactly where "around" is, but I'm pretty sure I've been there, assuming "around" is in North Carolina.

I don't think it's a matter of area but of urban v rural. I'm from Mississippi and have also never used any of those words except "soft drinks" unless specifically refering to coke.

Well where I'm from, in east Tennessee, a coke is any carbonated drink.

• I use the glottal stop as well. I'm from the Mississippi Coast and distinctly remember pronouncing those words with "t"s growing up, but when I moved to North Mississippi I picked up the slight variation.

According to the book "The Story of English" by Krumm, the Southen Accent was heavily influenced by French via Lousiana. Note how some southerners pronounce "sing" as "sang" Consider how the "i" in the French word "Moulin" is prounounced. It is very similar to English "a" in father!

Reliability of Word Usage Section

I understand that the Word Usage section has a disclaimer stating that many of these phrases aren't sourced, but I think that the exclusion of those items needing citation should seriously be considered until sources are verified. I was born and raised on the Mississippi Coast, have many relatives across the Southeast and in Texas, and currently attend school at the University of Mississippi, which has a notable variety of SAE dialects from across the SAE spoken region. Those being my only credentials, I couldn't swallow this section. The phrases mentioned in this section are NOT in widespread usage among all dialects of SAE, and many of them could/should be considered part of Older SAE, associated by many my age with rural dialects and more importantly with the elderly.

I can imagine that some of these phrases and word usages may have survived in different regions, but it has to be at varying degrees. For example- I have never used the words "yonder," "reckon" or "young'un"; used the words "carry" or "tote" in the manner suggested in the article; the phrases "to tump over" or "to chuck"; the "wasn't"/"doesn't" forms "wudn't"/"dudn't"; or the use of singular nouns as if they were plural. These are associated with older generations and rural speech patterns. But I have used the word "buggy" for "push-cart," which is something that many speakers of SAE do not say anymore, especially in urban areas. The word "mash" is also not used, as far as I am aware, simply as a substitute for "press" or "push" but as a word of emphasis more likened to "excessive force" as in "I mashed my finger with the hammer."

My proposition is that even if there are cited, reliable sources for these word phrases, that it be considered an objective to research where these are used more frequently as it can be argued their usage as a whole is not characteristic of SAE, but more probable only regional sub-dialects within SAE. And that even such sources as Harvard Dialect Survey do not take into account the differences between Older and Newer SAE but are general questions that relate the answers given to the specific areas where the questions were asked, not the actual dialect spoken which can be diverse depending on where one grew up and where one now resides. (If this is an incorrect analysis, I truly am sorry, but it's what I can gather from the reference site provided.)

I am not an expert in this field, so I can only offer observable data to discuss, and would be very interested to see why an expert would disagree. I was just genuinely shocked that such words considered "Old South" by younger generations would be bundled up with more contemporary SAE usage without distinction.

Also, the usage of "mosquito hawk" and "snake doctor" do not refer to "dragonfly" and "crane fly" interchangeably with anyone I have met, and the article suggests- perhaps because of word placement- that it can be. However, I wouldn't doubt that it does in some areas. I understand that this isn't reliable sourcing but original research, but the common use of "mosquito hawk" only refers to "crane flys" and a "snake doctor" is a "dragonfly" as far as I'm aware.207.68.251.25 21:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)jlseal

No Original Research, Please

Please do not contibute original research (i.e. one's own thoughts or ideas) to Wikipedia (especially to linguistics articles). Doing so is against Wikipedia policy (WP:NOR).

Aside from that fact, just "living in an area" for a long time does not make one an expert on dialect(s). There are too many variables to consider (including the influence of mass media, popular culture, and the 20th Century advent of easily-accessible rapid transit). Unless you are trained and educated in the subject of linguistics, your unqualified opinions may serve to only add confusion to an already complex subject. "I've never heard..." or "I've always heard..." does not cut it.

If you do have contributions to make, please make sure they are referenced. ++ Arx Fortis 07:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The map

Umm I don't know if any of these map makers have ever been to Western Kentucky it's undoubtibly the most Southern area of the states yet it's not shaded on this map. Also people consider Southern Illinois Southern in Dialect, yet the area below the mason dixon line isn't shaded Southern???? can some one say FLAW

The map is based on information in The Atlas of North American English by William Labov and his colleagues (ISBN 3-11-016746-8). The map only shows one aspect of Southern speech, however, namely the monophthongization of the vowel of "price" to something like "prahs". If you have more accurate published information from a reliable source, feel free to update the map. —Angr 21:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

http://www.geocities.com/yvain.geo/diausa.gif

http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US1/REF/images/dialectsus.gif

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/NationalMap/NatMap2.GIF

http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects/AmDialMap.gif

http://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/mapping/map.html

http://www.msu.edu/~preston/LAVIS.pdf

http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects/AmDialLnx.html

Here's a few maps I think yall should find interesting

Terminology

Do linguists use the term "Southern American English"? I tried doing some google research on this before and I remember that I found that there were only a few linguists who used that term. Even if the term is legit (and I'd like to see some proof that it is), I don't think the article should use the abbreviation "SAE", because isn't that customarily used to stand for "Standard American English"? And what is this older/newer "SAE" distinction? Where does that come from? It seems to be entirely original research. schi ^talk 00:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

ANAE just calls it "Southern", but of course we can't call the article Southern because it would be too ambiguous. I can't think of anything else to call it but the Southern dialect of American English, which probably doesn't get boatloads of googlehits either. —Angr 06:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Word use

Over the next day or so I will be reasearching the assertions made in the Word Use section. Those for which a reference can be found will be moved above the "unsourcedsect" tag. ++ Arx Fortis 01:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Better Map

Here is another map that is better than the one that is currently on the site. It too is based on Labov's work. It shows the totality of what he and his team at UPenn consider "Southern English," not just one dialectal trait. It is similiar to the map on the page, but includes a few more areas. I don't know how to make Wiki-maps but I will work on learning how, if anyone wants to try their hand at it instead, here it is. http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/MapsS/Map1S.html Here is the page the map is from http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/home.html Lasersnake 19:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

A better map needs to be on this article. The southern dialect is heard all over Oklahoma; not just the bottom sliver as the map suggests. I recommend using the one from PBS. I actually worked with the professors who researched it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.47.197.247 (talk • contribs) 23:17, 30 January 2007 UTC

One possibility is to include multiple aspects of Southern speech (see the map at Northern cities vowel shift) rather than just one. I believe Angr is the most qualified to make such a map. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, well, but I'm the one who made the map these people are complaining about... —Angr 23:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

That's right. You got us in this problem and you're getting us out of it. Seriously though, as good an idea as it is, a map including other aspects of southern speech may still not satisfy people since the area covered in the monophthongization map covers pretty much all the other aspects anyway. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I know. That's why Labov et al. use the monophthongization isogloss alone in their definition of Southern. I should point out that they have no specific information about southern Oklahoma at all; their only data from Oklahoma is from Tulsa and OK City and shows no diphthongization at all. Southern OK is only colored because it's geometrically convenient when Springfield, Little Rock, and Amarillo all have to be included in Southern. I could do what I eventually did with Commons:Image:Cot-caught merger.png, and just show dots to indicate cities where monophthongization is attested rather than implying that large areas have it when actually there's no evidence for them one way or the other. —Angr 23:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Ehh, the CCM dot format may be accurate but it's not as... expressive. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I have a problem with the Western Kentucky, Southern Indiana, and SOuthern Illinois areas of the current map. A few credible sources have been posted above on this talk page that lables those areas as Southern. From personal experience those are the most Southern areas of the state of Kentucky (this is personal experience). A few of those maps also lable Southern Indiana (across from Louisville) as part of the Southern dialect range too. 74.128.200.135 02:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Angr, I found this map http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/NationalMap/NatMap1.html Is it the one you used to base your Wikimap? I see what you mean that Labov only used the monophthongization of "ay" to define the Southern dialect region. I think that means the map I suggested is the same map that is used to make your wiki-map. I guess my suggestion is that the shaded line on your wikimap be moved a little north to include the parts of Southern Maryland more of W.Va that are included on the Labov map. A wiki-editor found your map and used it as evidence that the Southern dialect was not spoken in MD, when I think we both agree that Labov does include it. Thanks for the clarification and the good work on the maps. Lasersnake 17:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I based my map on one in the print version of the ANAE. The isogloss on that map is rather further south than in the one you linked to, but the point I was trying to make above is that these isoglosses are not exact. The ANAE (both the print version and the web edition) is based on a telephone survey conducted with urban speakers only. The data collected shows ay-monophthongization in Charleston, Roanoke, Richmond, and Norfolk, but not in Clarksburg, DC, or Baltimore. It provides no information at all about northeastern WV or southern MD! You can't take the isoglosses on either my map or the one you linked to so seriously. —Angr 20:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I guess it is splitting hairs as to whether the isogloss should be 50 miles further north or south since, as you say, their was no samples from that area anyway. I can live with a little imprecision. Thanks for letting me know how you came to your conclusion. Lasersnake 20:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't care which map is used as long as we reach a consensus on the map and then agree to stop changing the map every few months. All the Southern articles suffer from this map-change itis. And to be honest, the changes usually aren't that big a deal.--Alabamaboy 20:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Huh??? This article had one map from April to October and then the current map since October. That doesn't sound like constant map-changing to me. —Angr 22:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I would like to tell you that I am from southern ohio trans-planted Southerner like the majority here. most people from southern ohio has some type of southern dialect & ancestry.Most of the early settlers of southern ohio in the 18th & early19th century came from Virginia,Kentucky. Later in the 1940's to 1980's a huge immigration of Southern appalachian's moved to southern ohio for work making southern ohio's dialect a much stronger southern dialect,southern culture,southern christianity this is even more true out in the rural areas but also in big cities such as North-Dayton,East-Dayton Fairborn,Xenia,Moraine,Middletown,Fairfield,Hamilton. I assure you if you come to the rural areas of southern-ohio try Hillboro rockyfork-lake area & you see southern conservative churches everywhere when you smell constant hickory-smoke in the air and everyone wearing boots & when you approach us you will feel the southern-hospitality you will know that we are not northerners, but southerners by all means. CelticPete March,20,2007

Florida?

Why is Florida not included? Rhythmnation2004 21:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd imagine because Florida speech isn't southern even if Florida itself is. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 03:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Florida is not part of the map because not all but most people from Florida are not even southern they are trans-planted northeasterners from NewYork,New Jersey etc, in fact south coastal Florida has no difference in dialect comparred to a Bostonian or New york/Jersey dialect.

Name

The name Southern American English indicated it was English from South America which is wrong, hence the change. Please dont revert to a title as ambiguous as it was, SqueakBox 22:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

No, that would be "South American English". Southern American English is unambiguous, correct, and has consensus as the most common name of the dialect. Please don't move the article to anything else. —Angr 22:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

See /Archive 1#Southern United States English for previous discussion of this issue. —Angr 22:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Well the debate didnt look like there was a consensus and it nmay not be umnambiguous to Americans but it is to everyone else. Your use of admin rollback also seems like a personal attack as if you are treatingm yme like a vandal or someone who doesnt understand how wikipedia works. Such an attitude is unhelpful. I'll stick an NPOV tag on the article till this gets resolved, SqueakBox 23:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I only used admin rollback on the redirects, to save time. I didn't use it to move the article back to this name. Adding an NPOV tag as if the content of the article were under dispute, rather than the use of the word "American", is disingenuous. While it's clear that Latin Americans object to the use of the word "American" to mean "of the United States", the fact is that in English it's the primary meaning of it. (Hence, while Mexicans and Argentinians may consider themselves americanos, English-speaking Canadians most certainly do not consider themselves "Americans".) Since this is the English-language Wikipedia, the fact that the Spanish word americano means something different (I'd go so far as to say Spanish americano and English American are false friends) is irrelevant. —Angr 23:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Hardly new, though. Rastafarianism had a dispute tag for 6 months before it was changed to Rastafari movement because of the name. It is also clear from the archive that I am not the only person who has trouble with this. We call the US United States not America and its not what Latin Americans think but the fact that the term is highly ambiguous to any Non Northern American English speaker. We've been here before with different words in Brit and American English, and IMO it is important to find a title that is unambiguous. What do other people think? SqueakBox 23:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how it is unambiguous. As Angr said, "South American English" would be ambiguous, as would something like "Southern English". But "Southern American" is not the English adjective for things from or dealing with South America; the adjectival form of "South America" is instead "South American". In the term "Southern American", the only possible analysis is that "Southern" is an adjective modifying "American"--i.e., something from or dealing with the southern part of America (and Angr is right when he says that "America" is more or less synonymous with "the United States" in English, as far as I know). My question for you would be, for which native speakers of English is "America" not generally a synonym for "the United States"? I'm not aware of any. --Miskwito 23:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) American doesn't mean "from the United States" only within the U.S., though. Canadians, Australians, and Brits all use "American" to mean "from the U.S.". There is no significant ambiguity to the word except when comparing its primary English meaning to its primary Spanish meaning. —Angr 23:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

What, exactly, about the article does not confirm to a Neutral Point of View? Dewrad 23:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The title. Its ambiguous and doesnt make a lot of senmse and thatr needs tagging. As there is a dispute re the title the npov tag seems the best one, SqueakBox 01:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Southern America redirects, correctly IMO, to South America. This article name is thus implying that we are talking about the English found in South America (Falklands, Guyana) and this name is an anomaly, perhaps needing an article Rfc,though I would ahve thought a com promise name would be the best solution, SqueakBox 01:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

You'll need to find an outside source that uses "Southern United States English." All the ones I've seen say "American." Changing it, as the mentioned in the previous discussion, would be original research. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 03:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, SqueakBox, this name is a compromise. In the literature, the dialect in question is uniformly called simply "Southern". But since it's obviously out of the question for us to name this article Southern, we compromise by adding American English to it. —Angr 05:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I assumed that it was actually called Southern. I got brought here because I speak southern UK English which is alsoo uniformly called a southern accent. How about Southern US English? I honestly feel the title is ambiguouis, the most ambiguous title I have conme across here in wikipedia pretty much. I dont agree that changing an ambiguous title could be considered original research esp given angr has said that what it is actually called is southern English, SqueakBox 14:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It is not unusual in English for a cardinal direction (east, south, north, west) used as a modifer to have a completely different meaning than the adjective (eastern, southern, northern, western) form of the direction used a modifer to the same noun. Examples include

West Virgina (the state) and Western Virginia (a part of the state of Virginia)

South Africa (the country) and Southern Africa (the large geographic region of the continent)

So really there is nothing strange or abhorant about South America (the continent) and Southern America (a cultural region of the US) having different meanings, and thus South American English and Southern American English would mean different things as well. Squeakbox, I understand your concern that non-native speakers may intially be confused about the difference between the two, but that is (for better or worse) the way our language works. All languages have confusing ideosyncracies, but to become a better speaker, they must be learned and understood, not ignored.
Lasersnake 15:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

My concern is not with non-native speakers, it is with non-American but native speakers of English. The fact that Southern America redirects to South America tends to contradict what you say, SqueakBox 16:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Also this relevant article Americas (terminology) doesnt back up what is beinmg said here, SqueakBox 16:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I am a little confused by your argument. Are you saying that in other parts of the world native English speakers refer to the continent as "Southern America," not "South American." If this is what you are saying please provide a quality reference to support this, scholerly, peer-reviewed, etc..
I certainly hope you know that citing another Wikipedia page to support your assertion on this wikipedia page isn't good research. I don't know any more than you do who constructed the redirect pages for this topic. Wikipedia should be consistant in its definitions, but each assertion still must be supported by evidence as being "correct." Otherwise, we will just be copying the same error from that page unto this one. Every encyclopedia, article, etc. I looked at on this topic refers to the continent as "South America." If you so desire I can list several.
Lasersnake 17:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) To reiterate -- I have met dozens, maybe hundreds, of native English speakers from other countries than the U.S. in my life, and I have never encountered a single one who didn't use the word "American" in the same way I do: to refer to the United States. I wouldn't put too much weight on the redirect from Southern America to South America; the question is, how often is "Southern America" actually used to refer to South America. And the concept "Southern America", whatever it may mean, is irrelevant for this article, since "Southern American English" is to be interpreted as "(Southern (American English))", not "((Southern American) English)". —Angr 17:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

America in English unquestionably means the US, I certainly dont dispute that, but Southern America is ambiguous because South America clearly refers to Latin America. If we are talking about sources we also need to attribute that Southern America means the US, I know the sourcing policies here, Lakersnake, and believe that without sources for Southern America referring to America there is a strong case for changing the article name, SqueakBox 17:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

How about Southern English? Its currently the disambig but my investigations inmdicate that this is the more common term for the English spoken in the south of the US and southern English doesn't exist as a concept in the UK, SqueakBox 17:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't? What's Southern English English about then? In John C. Wells's The Accents of English he divides his discussion of English English up into "RP revisited", "London", "The south", and "The north", so he apparently considers "the south" to be an identifiable dialect region of England. —Angr 18:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

As I said before it is actually cvalled a southern accent in the UK, it looks like the naming problem goes further than just this article, SqueakBox 18:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I think Angr has figured out the confusion. It is not Southern American...English. It is Southern...American English. Can we agree that American English is an unambigous term? If so than Southern American English would clearly refer to the dialect of American English spoken in the South. I don't think changing the name back to Southern English would help anything. In fact I think Southern English was changed to Southern American English to help make the page less ambigious.
Squeakbox, I understand you feel strongly about your claim,but I must disagree when you say that "without sources for Southern America referring to America there is a strong case for changing the article name." Like it or not, the burden of proof here rests with you, and if you can only back up your argument with your own conviction, I am afraid it will fall short.
Lasersnake 17:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe that this Wikipedia:Attribution doesnt back up your assertion. All material needs attributiong not merely making changes, SqueakBox 18:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I regret that I mentioned the South America vs. Southern America analogy, it was a bad analogy and has lead us astray. What Angr pointed out is real issue here, the page is about a dialect of American English known as Southern American English, it is NOT about a region called Southern America. If the page was about Southern America than your point about citation would be valid, but lets please move past this confusion and address the real issue.
Here is a citation from a public broadcast special that refers to the English of the U.S. as American English http://www.pbs.org/speak/ Notice that this webpage is based on the work of several linguists
Here are some articles that refer to the subdialect in question as Southern American English
http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/southern/sounds/
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/american_speech/v079/79.2clopper.html
Brown, Vivian. 1990. The social and linguistic history of a merger: /i/ and /e/ before nasals in Southern American English. Texas A & M University dissertation (sorry not online)
Please review them at your leisure. Hopefully this will suffice to prove that we are not all making this up. I encourage you to provide citations of your own that would indicate a more suitable title for this article.
Lasersnake 18:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and as I mentioned above..."South American" is the correct adjectival form of "South America" in English, not "Southern American", so as you say, Lasersnake, "Southern American English" can really only refer to the English of the South of America [=The U.S.]. Also, if you think "Southern American English" is ambiguous, Squeakbox, surely "Southern English" would be far far more ambiguous? --Miskwito 17:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Name part 2

What do people think about renaming the article Southern (American English)? That makes it clear that we're dealing with a variety of American English called "Southern" and precludes any misinterpretation relating to South America. —Angr 13:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I want to say no. The problem with proposing any change to this article's name to avoid such an ambiguity is that there is no English-speaking region in South America. Any ambiguity in regards to exactly what it refers to is easily addressed in the first clause of the first sentence: "Southern American English is a group of dialects of the English language spoken throughout the Southern region of the United States..." The problem with trying to avoid people thinking "American" in this context means South American is that American English technically has that same ambiguity but we trust that the reader is either literate enough or knowledgeable enough already to be able to discern pretty quickly that America means North America in this context.

However, if there were an equivalent Southern (British English) (which may or may not exist already under a different title) then that would make an important distinction between British and American English dialects and, in that case, would be fine by me. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, there are English speakers in Guyana and the Falkland Islands, but they don't have a unified dialect. The equivalent to Southern (British English) exists at Southern English English. —Angr 05:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with renaming the article. I initially thought the idea was ungrounded, but refrained from commenting to allow myself some time to reflect on the issue and not give a knee-jerk reaction. After some thought, I realize that my first impression was correct.

1. SqueakBox states he was brought here while searching for "Southern English," which he represents as a dialect of English spoken in southern England. However, the title of this article contains the word "American." No matter which meaning one assigns to that word (nation or continents), it obviously does not fit SqueakBox's original search context. Thus, the original source of confusion in this issue is moot. It was not from someone wanting to learn about the English language spoken on the continent South America.

2. Anyone searching for such an article would quickly realize that this article is about the southern region of the United States. As if the map were not clue enough, no one would read through the article and mistake it for an article on anything else. Any erroneous assumption as to the content of this article would instantly dissipate for any reasonable person.

3. There is no Wikipedia article on the English language spoken on the continent of South America. The List of dialects of the English language page doesn't even give mention of "South American" English dialects. If there were such an article, a 'disambiguation' or 'distinguish' link could and would be provided to assist users. However...

4. One cannot accurately analyze a language in a vacuum. Language is inseparably intertwined with culture, politics and history. Unless a sizable, detectable, sociolinguistic (first-language) culture exists within an established sociopolitical structure, it cannot be considered a dialect nor a candidate for linguistic study or classification. Moreover, a localized population of first-language English speakers on the continent of South America would be considered a unit in and of itself and not collectively grouped with other unrelated, diasporic populations in different areas of the continent. (Think Guyanese English vs. Brazilian English).

5. One cannot argue abmiguity between a thing that exists and one that does not. As illustrated above, there is no collective "South American English" ++Arx Fortis 06:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

"Well known people"

Per prior discussion (see archive link above), I agree with Angr's comments about listing specific people in the article. None of these people have any citations next to their names. I don't see how including them, short of an acceptable reference, could be anything but original research. (Some of the names have been removed several times, only to make their way back onto the page.) Thus, I have removed the entire list. If anyone cares to research and cite references for "well known" individuals, feel free. ++Arx Fortis 18:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Texas Accent?

There's nothing on the Texas accent in all of Wikipedia. Rick Perry is crying tears of blood.

It's about time he did! The Texas accent falls under South Midland and the Gulf dialects, I believe. Though, despite the fact that I live here, I don't really know... --Miskwito 23:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

According to Labov et al (2006), most of Texas falls in the South dialect region, but without the diphthongization of /oh/. AJD 23:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

As I recall from my days living in Texas, there isn't a Texas accent. East Texas is considerably twangier than West Texas, and in South Texas (where the predominant language was traditionally Spanish) the Anglos have basically General American pronunciation with Texas usage (y'all, might could), while the Chicanos whose native language is English have an accent all their own. —Angr 05:21, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The Texan accent is heard in every inch of Oklahoma and at least half of Kansas and parts of New Mexico and Arizona as well. Its very close in dialect to the Appalachian dialect which is kind of a manly accent.

That might be true of Oklahoma, but Kansans think of Texan as a very different accent. I'm not saying anything bad, it's just that we don't sound the same.Cameron Nedland 13:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

This is very true. Speaking as a native Texan (no pun intended) who has spent a lot of time in Kansas, IMHO the accents are nothing alike. Reflecting settlement patterns, Texas speech is Southern American, while Kansas is definitely not. As concerns Oklahoma, it seems to me that folks in southern and eastern Oklahoma sound more like Texans, while those north of Oklahoma city and west of Tulsa sound more "midwestern." Also, other than the small part of eastern New Mexico sometimes called "Little Texas", the dialects of that state and Arizona are different as well. TexasReb 16:31, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Several distinct Texas accents are recognized by dialect coaches. West Texas is different from East Texas, for example. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This is very true as well. Again reflecting settlement patterns, East Texas (particularly among older residents) tends to have more of that softer drawl of the Gulf or Deep South, whereas West Texans usually have a "twangier" quality that more resembles the Upper or Mountain South (especially parts of Tennessee). TexasReb 13:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

That is true of Oklahoma.Iam an Okie and we talk Okie which is Texan .You should come down here we are not Yankees we are trans-planted Southerners that came to the land rush from texas,arkansas,alabama,kentucky you get the hint

texasreb hey i repect all your input but Oklahoma is more southern from what you said i have lived in Oklahoma my whole life and have visited all of Oklahoma including northern Oklahoma which is not midwestern but Southern sir and i consider myself a Southerner to the bone I would compare Oklahoma a cross between Arkansas/Texas/Missouri.Oklahoma is also the most SOUTHERN BAPTIST state in the country which is my religion.

And I respect your opinion in turn. I am not unfamiliar with Oklahoma myself, in fact I live only some 20 minutes from the Red River border in North Texas. And I would never dispute anyone's "Southerness." However, in my own travels through the state, I stand by my opinion that, dialect wise, people in southern and eastern Oklahoma tend to talk more like people from Texas and Arkansas, while those closer to Kansas sound more midwestern, and many dialect maps indicate this. That is not intended to be disparaging, just my own take on it. Note also that I did not call Oklahoma a midwestern state, but am only making reference to accents. In fact, in my opinion Oklahoma is much more Southern than not. If you are interested, and haven't seen it, you might check out the "Archive 1" on the "Southern United States" discussion board. The topic of Oklahoma and its Southern status is discussed quite a bit. On a lighter note, I too am Southern Baptist, so can tell this little joke: Buddists don't recognize the authority of the Pope. Jews don't recognize the authority of the New Testament. And Southern Baptists don't recognize each other in liquor stores!  :-) TexasReb 15:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Nature vocabulary

Relating to the above discussion, I've always heard "mosquito hawk" used to mean crane fly. On the subject of animal and plant names, "raccoon perch" is a yellow perch, "spread-adder" is a hognose snake, "yellow cat" is a flathead catfish or yellow bullhead, "devil's brush" is thistle. Also, the saying "The devil is beating his wife" refers to sunshowers.

Perhaps the article needs a section on these nature terms? (These are a few of the terms I have heard used. There are many more.) I can only source "spread-adder" and "yellow cat" but I'm sure others can find the other terms. Vultur 23:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I suspect this varies a lot within SAE as well, but if you can find sources that's great. Where do you live, out of curiosity? --Miskwito 08:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

There definetly needs to be a section on nature terms...and its not "The devil is beating his wife", it's "Da devil's beatin 'is wife" where I'm from. Solar Sunstorm 21:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I grew up in Eastern Virginia calling hog-nosed snakes puff adders. I once observed to a Norfolk taxi driver that the devil was beating his wife, and he replied, "Yeah, if you stick a pin in the ground you can hear it."Jdcrutch 22:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Well I Never!

I don't want to disrespect the hard work someone obviously put into this article. In my very, very humble opinion, it seems that this page is dedicated more to an upscale southern accent, like you might find in Savannah or in some older southerners. Dropped R's and genteel Y's and mint jeeeuuulups at the ke-un-tuckeh deh-by and the like. Am I reading the phonetic spellings wrong? Or is anyone making a distinction between that accent, and the one we're actually using down south? --Spesek 15:35, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The article does try to distinguish between "Older SAE" and "Younger SAE", as well as between varieties spoken in different parts of the South. The coastal South, for example, was traditionally non-rhotic, though that's recessive now, while the inland South never was. —Angr 16:02, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Removing unsourced statements

I'm removing the following statements that have been tagged as unsourced (and potential original research) for several months:

• Others with mostly English roots usually settled along the Atlantic coast. Others brought accents from other cultural and linguistic traditions.
• The dialect found in the remaining rural areas of tidewater Maryland is similar to the dialect found in Virginia, and some experts have also suggested that the dialect found in two of Delaware's three counties is related to Southern.
• The final 'l'-sound in words like fool may be elided altogether, as it normally is in AAVE.
• *Use of unmarked verb preterits. Not marking come for tense is on the decline.

They come in here last night.

• The majority of Baltimore natives now speak a variety of the Philadelphia accent, which is Midland and not Southern.
• However, Hurricane Katrina of the 2005 Atlantic hurricane season, and its resultant mass evacuation of New Orleans and other areas along the Mexican Gulf has further endangered the preservation of these dialects.
• Although African influences are common in all strains of Southern Dialects, especially Creole,...
• Use of the verb "reckon" to mean "perceive" or "think". For example "I reckon there's a chance of rain" or "I reckon I want to go fishin'". The term "reckon" is also still widely used in British English.
• Use of "to love on someone or something" in place of "to show affection to" or "be affectionate with someone or something." For example: "He was lovin' on his new kitten."
• The use of singular nouns which end in an "s" sound as if they were plural as in, "Pass me those molasses." or "Did you get your license?....Yes, I got them."
• Use of the word "mash" in the place of "press" or "push". Example: "Would you mash that elevator button for me?"
• Use of the word "carry" in the place of "drive". Example: "Would you carry me in your car to the store?"
• The use of the word "cut" rather than "turn" on/off lights in a house or car, as in, "cut the lights on for me"
• Use of the word "young'un" instead of "child" or "kid".
• Use of the word "tote" instead of "carry". Example: "Tote that bucket over to me."
• Use of archaic "hit" for "it."
• Use of the verb "to tump over," meaning "to tip over so that the contents spill out."
• Use of the verb "to chuck" or "to chunk" for "to throw."
• Use of the word "proud" to mean "happy" or "pleased" as in, "I was real proud to meet y'all."
• In parts of Southern Kentucky and East Tennessee, "I don't care to do that" carries the connotation that the speaker is willing to do something for another person (despite the seeming contradictory meaning, which may stem from the idea of "It does not cause me care [or worry] to do that for you.") For example, if Person A said, "I need a ride to the post office," Person B's response of "I don't care to take you" indicates a willingness to do so, equivalent to "I don't mind taking you".

If anyone can find and cite sources for these statements, feel free to re-add them. —Angr 16:01, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Does "we just talk that way" not count? (Serious question) One I didn't see was "if'n" as a hypothetical, such as "If'n I was to quit my job, would we starve?" Poochner 21:46, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

No, "we just talk that way" doesn't count. For one thing, different people will disagree on how they talk. We need citations to reliable sources, preferably of a scholarly nature. —Angr 05:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I have a source on "Use of unmarked verb preterits. Not marking come for tense is on the decline." I will re-list the feature once I have the exact citation. Oxen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.249.177.227 (talk) 10:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

^ exactly why wikipedia will eventually fail. "we just talk that way" does count, and saying it doesn't is exactly why so many southerners STILL can't stand outsiders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.229.247 (talk) 01:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Interregional anxieties have no play in the matter. Every dialect, language, and register is held to the same scrutiny. There is nothing about southern culture or speech that makes it an exception and arguing that there should be is classic special pleading. Consider the implications of the claim "we don't need to give scrutiny to claims about southern speech." Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 05:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Angr, thanks for removing those statements. I had worked on that section a while back. I found sources for a few of those items and marked them, but failed to find any for the rest. My hesitance prevented me from being bold enough to remove the rest. ++Arx Fortis 01:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for answering my question in a rational way. I would also say that I haven't heard all of those, but I have heard the majority of them. I imagine the research would include more specific regional differences (say, between Appalachian and lowland areas), yes? Poochner 18:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Angr's comments are surprisingly elitist for a wiki. If he or she wants a resource written only by people with advanced academic credentials, I would refer him or her to the Encyclopedia Britanica. It is arguable that only trained scholars are competent to draw generalizations and formulate theories--though there's a lot of incompetence on display in some of the "learned" dialect studies I've read--but Angr is deleting what amounts to field reports. The statements in "authoritative" works are derived from precisely the same kind of field reports, and peer review does not guarantee their accuracy. The accuracy of field reports depends much more on the ear and experience of the reporter than on education or paper credentials. I would suggest that no citation is needed for reports from personal observation. If they are incorrect, other observers can correct them (or, better, discuss them here and then propose corrections).

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 01:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Jim, original research and "field reports" are explicitly excluded from Wikipedia. Everything in here is supposed to be able to be found in verifiable sources. AJD 03:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I can understand banning unpublished theories, analyses, and other intellectual work-product; but, as I said before, there is no reason to regard published reports of how people talk as superior to unpublished. Peer review of scholarly papers--the reason why published material can be regarded as more reliable than unpublished--does not extend to checking a writer's transcriptions against the field recordings. I'm only an amateur, but I'll stake my transcriptions of Southern speech against those of Labov or Wolfram any day.

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 04:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

There is, in fact, a reason that primary data shouldn't be welcome in Wikipedia. The vast majority of Wikipedia editors are either anonymous or pseudonymous, and that means fundamentally people take no responsibility for their contributions. If I add some claim—say, that the Northern Cities Vowel Shift can be found in Glens Falls, New York—based on my own unpublished data, I'm not risking anything (outside of the community of Wikipedia itself) because my name isn't attached to it. If I publish research under my own name and it turns out to be false, my reputation as a reliable researcher is damaged. Here, people can insulate their reputations by means of anonymity, and so they have no incentive not to post poorly researched, or even flat-out false, data. Moreover, peer review of scholarly papers, although they don't go so far as to validate the data itself, do validate the methodology. A paper reporting new data is unlikely to get past peer review if, in the judgment of the reviewers, the methods employed are unlikely to generate reliable data. Even in non-peer-reviewed situations, such as conference presentations, the methodology is described and listeners can decide if they trust the data that's presented on that basis. Wikipedia isn't the place for loads of primary data plus all the background that would be necessary for readers to decide whether it's reliable (especially all from people who face no personal consequences for posting convincing hoaxes). AJD 05:22, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Very poignant argument, Ajd. I think, though, that what you're describing is original research, not primary sources. I'm sure you didn't mean to muddle the distinction. For readers curious, both links direct to official Wikipedia policies regarding sources. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 07:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I see what AJD means: anonymity is the problem--something I've never liked on web forums, as you can gather from my signature. It seems to me, though, that we can get around that through debate on this forum--contributors can correct or corroborate one another and arrive at pretty much the same level of accuracy as the published reports I've read.

How do folks feel about citations to published audio recordings?

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 16:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Recordings are a good source so long as they are part of a study or documentary, not just a recording of someone talking with added WP:OR as commentary. Arx Fortis 17:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Is Southern truly a dialect?

Hi, can you cite academic sources for calling southern accents and regionalisms "dialects"? Cantonese and Mandarin are dialects (same language, but not mutually comprehensible). I don't believe mainstream Southern American English differs significantly enough from Midwest or Western American English to constitute a dialect. The tone of this article suggests Missourians and Illnois people speak separate dialects on the grounds that Missourians call fizzy drink "pop" while the Illinois folks call it "soda." I don't know the proper linguistic term, but "regionalism" seems more correct than a full blown dialect. WikiPicky 02:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

No, you have it backwards. Cantonese and Mandarin are actually different languages, only popularly called "dialects" because the relationship between the different Chinese languages is confusing to English-speakers for some reason. Dialects are different versions of the same language that are mututally comprehensible but belong to different geographical areas and differ systematically in phonology, grammar, and word choice. By the way, it's pop in Chicago and soda in St. Louis. AJD 03:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Mandarin and Chinese are not the typical examples for how far mutual intelligibility goes before different dialects are deemed different languages (Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian, are extremes in the opposite fashion). The area can get pretty fuzzy at some points but calling Southern a "dialect" is noncontroversial and you can look at any of the sources at the bottom of the page. Also, see language-dialect aphorism. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 08:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi AJD, I'm from Missouri and we call it pop. Or maybe that's my Kansas City "dialect".... I went to highschool east of St Louis in Illinois, where "soda" was the normal word and "pop" confused people. Or, maybe it's Saint Louis that is the "soda" place and Kansas City and Chicago belong to the Slavo-Germanic "pop" speaking cultural group... I'm waiting for the Wikipedia article... WikiPicky 02:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, St. Louis is a "soda" city and Kansas City and Chicago are both "pop". There is a Wikipedia article: Soft drink naming conventions. I'd also refer you to [this nifty map http://popvssoda.com:2998/countystats/total-county.html]. AJD 15:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

In Harrisburg, Pennsylvania we called it "soda," but when I went to school in Pittsburgh — just 200 miles to the west in the same state — it was "pop." I've now lived in Georgia for almost ten years and I'm still not used to "cocola". PurpleChez 22:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

V

I've been in Georgia for almost ten years...long enough that I generally don't notice the accent anymore. There are just a few specific places where it stands out, and I'd be interested in seeing those discussed. One is the conversion of "v" to "m" (sorry, I don't know how to use the phonetic alphabet), such as when "seven" becomes "semm". The other is when certain words are suddenly articulated almost like a violent sneeze. The example that comes to mind is a coworker talking...nothing remarkable...until he gets to the phrase "right there", which becomes a suddenly very loud and forceful "RHY-CHYAH!" (or something to that effect). No reason in context for the sudden dramatic change in volume. You don't hear that every day, but it's not rare either.

Also...at the grocery stores, even some of the national chains, on the signs hanging at the end of the aisles, the suffixes "-en" and "-ed" are dropped from many of the adverbs: froze food, can vegetables. And, of course, it is very prevalent, even among educated people, to make plurals with an apostrophe-s. I remember a tourist attraction in the "Alpine" town of Helen, GA that had HUGE (and, I imagine, expensive) banners out front advertising "toy's" and "gift's". Here in Athens there is a carpeting outfit whose trucks advertise "Carpet's Plus." I know that this is not unique to the South, but it must be ten times more common here than it was back home (where nobody says "to be"). Another interesting feature of the vocabulary are compound words that sound redundant to an outsider: ink pen, loaf bread (not the same as loaf of bread—here, loaf is more akin to wheat or white...it's a style), Cadillac car (it's not just on King of the Hill!). PurpleChez 22:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Gotta source this stuff. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I've never been real clear on "loaf bread" though I've heard it all my life. I've thought "ink pen" was to distinguish it from "stick pin" because "pin" and "pen" sound the same here. Poochner 21:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I've heard that about "ink pen" and "stick pin" too. I suspect "loaf bread" is in contrast to "pan bread" like cornbread. But this too needs sources before it can be added. —Angr 05:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Thoughts On SAE

I have noticed that people in the town I live in in South Carolina tend to use "ɔ" as the vowel in "hot" and "on" rather than the "ɑ" used in General American. It is possible that my General American ears are playing tricks on me? I want to know if the "Newer SAE" has a cot-caught merger and if they do, what vowel do these words have? It also seems to my ears that the "r" is pronounced more heavily when it is not followed by a vowel than in GAE. Before I moved here, I thought that people would use "coke" as their term for soft drinks; however, I was mistaken. Everyone I have bumped into says "soda". Also, many people in the red region of the map in this article do not have much of an "accent". This might seem obvious; however, I think it should be addressed. I am talking about people who have lived in the region their entire lives and somehow just do not have the "accent". I asked some of these people why they did not speak this dialect and they could not give me an answer. They said they did not intentionally change their speech (as in the case of Stephen Colbert). They just never had accents, according to what they told me. I just want to know why this happens (Besides the fact that SAE is stigmatized. These people clearly did not care about that or they would have changed their speech intentionally, which they did not do.)

208.104.45.20 00:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

My grandmother was from Orangeburg, SC, (she grew up in neighboring St. Matthews, I believe) and she used /ɔ/ in my father's name, /rɔb^t/. I don't remember how she pronounced "hot". When my father was a boy, he wrote "Momma" as "Mima", reflecting the shift of /o/ towards (but not quite into) /æ/ (there is no phonetic symbol for the Southeastern "i" sound, as in "wine" and "Lodi"!).

Everybody who speaks has an accent. We learn to use the accent we most often hear. Young Southerners today talk with a "general American" accent because they hear more speech from the television than from their older kinfolks and neighbors. Also probably because identifiable regional accents, and particularly Southern ones, are disfavored in modern US culture, thanks to TV and film stereotypes, under which 90% of people with Southern accents are morons or racist villains or both. I suspect people can change their speech because of embarrassment or self-consciousness without being fully aware of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdcrutch (talk • contribs) 22:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I am well aware that everyone has an accent. If you think the television greatly influences the way we speak then you should read this. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:14, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

White Space

There is a lot of white space in the first section of the article. Anyone know how to bring the TOC higher to eliminate some of it? ++Arx Fortis 22:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

How's it now? —Angr 06:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Oooh, very nice! Thanks, Angr. ++Arx Fortis 22:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

A Few Interesting Pronunciations

An interesting pronunciation I have noticed in the South occurs when there is an "l" immediately followed by an "s" in a word. A "t" sound is inserted between the two consonants. Thus "also" becomes "altso" ([ɔɫtsoʊ]) and "else" becomes "elts" ([ɛɫts]). Supposedly, this pronunciation is shared with Utah English. The majority of my teachers pronounce words like those in that way. Another noteworthy pronunciation is that of the phrase "not yet". Most of my teachers pronounce this something like "nah chet" ([nɑtʃɛt]). I believe this is a result of hypercorrection. 208.104.45.20 21:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how that could possibly be hypercorrection. It sounds like straightforward assimilation to me. —Angr 22:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Most people from the United States do not pronounce it that way. That was my point. So when you here someone that does, you can assume that that person is doing it to sound educated (which most of my teachers are) or extra intelligent (don't know about that one though). 208.104.45.20 02:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

But pronouncing not yet as [nɑtʃɛt] sounds less educated, not more; or at least less speech-conscious. —Angr 06:23, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. It sounds less educated to me as well. It just sounds like the way a person would pronounce the phrase in attempt to sound more educated when it actually has the opposite effect. Usually in the United States we do not fully pronounce our t's at the ends of words. When you fully pronounce (aspirate) the t at the end of "not", the t and the y at the start of "yet" begin to sound like a "ch" sound. Maybe it's not exactly a "ch" sound. Now I think I was wrong with the IPA. I guess it's just an aspirated t quickly followed by a y. Anytime I hear someone fully aspirate the t at the end of any word in the U.S., I assume that person is trying to sound educated and intelligent. 208.104.45.20 20:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Pronouncing /tj/ as /tʃ/ or /ʃ/ ("not yet" as /nɑtʃʲɛt/) is quite common in English, as in "actual", "nation", though it does not seem to be a live phenomenon in the "General American" dialect. In Monty Python's "Cheese Shop" sketch, John Cleese says /j lɔɪk a nɔɪs tʃʉːn/ = "I like a nice tune."

The whole "trying to sound educated" business makes no sense to me. In my experience, highly educated people tend to avoid assimilation, some even to the point of sounding preposterously mannered.

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 03:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, you don't have to tell me your name, buddy. Thanks. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

During

I have heard the word "during" pronounced [dɪɹiŋ] in the South. 208.104.45.20 21:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Southern "I"

Why is there no IPA symbol for the vowel sound Southeasterners use in words like "wine" and "ride"? The symbol commonly used, /ɑː/, is accurate only for Louisiana and Mississippi, as far as I know. In Virginia and South Carolina, the areas I'm most familiar with, the sound is more like /æː/, but I've never known a linguist to write it that way.

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 03:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you're looking for [a:]? AJD 05:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Judging by the audio examples on http://www.paulmeier.com/ipa/vowels.html, /æː/ and [a:] seem to cover the range. On a second reading, I see that the article uses [a:], not /ɑː/, as I had first thought.

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 16:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

From the article:

The diphthong /aɪ/ becomes monophthongized to [aː]. Some speakers exhibit this feature at the ends of words and before voiced consonants but Canadian-style raising before voiceless consonants, so that ride is [raːd] and wide is [waːd], but right is [rəɪt] and white is [wəɪt]; others monophthongize /aɪ/ in all contexts.

In the coastal plains of Va. (where I grew up), N. C., and S. C., the diphthong is closer to /ɑɪ/, and right on the coast of the Carolinas (and I believe on Va.'s Eastern Shore) it comes very close to /ɔɪ/ (whence the nickname "hoi toiders" for residents of the N. C. Outer Banks).

Monophthongization of /aɪ/ in all contexts seems to occur mainly in the mountains and in other areas to which large numbers of mountaineers have migrated, such as Texas and the Carolina Piedmont. In the latter area, it is usually a token of class, reflecting the migration of mountaineers to work in Piedmont textile mills in the first half of the 20th Century.

As far as I can tell, monophthongization of /aɪ/ in all contexts never occurs with non-rhotism, something Hollywood has never been able to grasp.

I have no published sources for these assertions, but they're true.

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 17:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

How do you know they're true? Have you spoken to 60-year-olds in Mobile, Alabama? [One of the few places in the South where non-rhoticity (not non-rhotism or even non-rhotacism) still exists]. Hollywood has been able to grasp that non-rhotic pronunciatons are accurate for movies that take place a while ago like Wild Wild West, Gods and Generals, Gettysburg, and Maverick. "NASCAR English" would not be appropriate to correctly depict those times. I am quite sure that the monophthongization of /aɪ/ has existed for a long time now (dialectologists don't call it the "Confederate A" for no reason), and, thus, it did and does (though not so frequently anymore) occcur with non-rhoticity. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)